Apparently I’m a bit behind on reading personal finance blogs, because I just came across a couple of articles from February of last year. They’re old, but make some great points and are very interesting reads. Trent at The Simple Dollar wrote an article about how a media interviewer called him a cheapskate. And then Him from Make Love Not Debt wrote about his thoughts on the topic. I found both articles very interesting, along with the comments from readers. It seems like everyone has an opinion, and two people can see another person’s frugality in very different ways. My personal opinion – and we’re all entitled to one – is that I’d much rather hang out with Trent than Him. I think Trent’s values are a lot more in line with my own, and from the articles I’ve read on his blog, he seems very happy with his life and choices.
But the articles brought up a deeper point than just the choices we make in our own lives and whom we choose as friends. There was a lot of talk about judging others and self-righteousness – from both sides of the frugal – spendy spectrum. I think that it’s somewhat natural to tend to think highly of others who are most like ourselves. Most people tend to choose friends with whom they have a lot in common. I would say that I’m probably the most frugal of my friends, but they’re all pretty focused on saving for a rainy day and for retirement, and none of them think less of me for shopping in thrift stores and driving an old car.
I do think of myself as frugal. And I am happy almost 100% of the time. For me, the connection between those two things is strong, and I believe that the simple life my husband and I have created for our family plays a large role in our happiness. But I don’t think less of people who make different choices in terms of how they spend their money. As long as those choices don’t impact the rest of us. If a person chooses to spend all of their income each month (and I’m not talking about someone working for minimum wage who barely has enough for rent and food), that is none of my business. But when I started hearing about mortgage bailouts after ARMs began to reset a couple years ago, I’ll admit to being irritated – especially when I read article after article about people who purchased houses that they could barely afford, even at the low introductory interest rate. Bankruptcy is another example of something that drives up costs for everyone else, and it’s frustrataing when the bankruptcy is caused because a person consistently made choices to spend instead of save. Yes, there are lots of cases where bankruptcy is caused because a person became too ill to work or suffered some sort of catastrophic circumstances, but there are also plenty of people who live paycheck to paycheck (despite having a good income) and are thus putting themselves in a situation where they have no ability to weather even the slightest financial storm.
What do you think? Do you agree more with Trent or with Him? Do you care about how other people choose to spend their money? Are you more or less frugal than your friends? Do you friends care?
Red says
I’ve read both of those posts, and I’m with you (and Trent).
I’m the most frugal of my friends/family members, and I’m called “cheap” most of the time. But I have bigger goals than going out every weekend or spending money on luxuries. I want to be debt free by the time I’m 26, and to do that, I have to be frugal and spend money wisely. (In that way, I can understand what Him means too. I’m living frugally to become debt free. But, really, once you reach your goals, I don’t think you should begin spending tons of money just because now you can.)
I don’t care how anyone spends their money if it doesn’t affect me. What’s the point? It does upset me to see friends who ask for my advice on their finances turn around and take on a mortgage when they can’t even afford rent. But it’s your business if you want to go to the theater every weekend, if you don’t want to save for retirement, if you’re fine carrying around debt. Just don’t judge me for clipping coupons and cutting cable out of my life while I enjoy simpler pleasures.
(By the way, my grandmother will be declaring bankruptcy in the coming months, due to her overspending. And while I’m also enraged about it, I think it’s important to consider WHY people spend more than they make. It’s probably not wise to make sweeping judgments about everyone who declares bankruptcy because of poor budgeting.)
NMPatricia says
I think “Him” has not represented Trent. I have read Trent’s posts for a long time now. He has his fun and invests in stuff that he likes. Him also makes a point that people can enjoy their money AFTER they fund their retirement, pay their debts and have a financial security. Hmmm, I wonder how many people that actually describes. But a lot, which explains why people are exploring frugalness (frugality?). I think the economy has just nudged people along that exploration.
And for the record, I would rather hang out with Trent. I think he has learned and constantly explores what is real about life and how it isn’t about money and “things”.
MP says
I don’t think it’s an either or question. Both raise very valid points. I sometimes am called a cheapskate because if I don’t have the money, I won’t do/buy etc. But, I like nice things, and I save to buy nice things. I know some frugal folks would wag their fingers at me for buying a 55 inch flat screen LCD player with home theatre and the furniture to put it on because, hey, what was wrong with the 26 inch tv I had? It was only 5 years old.
But guys, I wanted it, I saved for it and I bought it with cash and I didn’t touch my emergency fund and I didn’t dip into any retirement savings, and I have no debt whatsoever (house is paid, car is paid). So what?
Of course, it also gets me into trouble with the friends who are environmentalists and think I’ve just contributed tons and tons to my carbon footprint.
So I can’t win on any front. But as long as I’m living within my means and saving money for retirement and paying cash for things I want and not going into debt, what’s the problem?
I also think people are way too harsh on those who found themselves unable to afford the homes they bought. There was a time when a bank would simply not lend you money if you couldn’t afford to pay it back. Banks need to take most of the blame for the predatory practices on those most vulnerable to the pitch. And many of those practices were downright fraudulent and criminal and people should be going to jail for their actions. But they’re not. They got a get-out-of-jail-free card courtesy of the US taxpayer.
H says
I think Him and Trent are really on the same page, but they are presenting the situation differently. I’m also under the impression, from when I used to read both blogs regularly a while back, that Him has a higher income than Trent does, and by not having children is at a different place in life.
It’s all about balance really, and the right balance between fun and frugality / cheapness will be different person to person. Trent’s interviewer was maybe being thoughtless, or maybe they were thinking that Trent did not hit the right balance.
I also agree with the sentiment expressed by many of the Make Love Not Debt readers, that some PF bloggers (I’m not talking about you) can come off a bit holier than thou sometimes. I don’t think most mean to, just that their baseline is so different from that of the average person’s that they can sound preachy when they think they’re just doling out common sense advice.
nopinkhere says
I have to say I can see both sides. I like that they both point out the judgmental nature of most people and how hard it is not to do it yourself.
For example, we have no debt other than our mortgage and live well below our means. But I do drive a BMW. (It’s my dream car, 8 years old, and has been paid off for years.) So if all you saw of me was me driving my car with my expensive car seats in the back that I picked because they should keep my kids safe, then you might think differently of me than when you see me at the park with my kids wearing our thrift store and home-sewn clothes and riding a tricycle from a consignment sale.
From a friend perspective, I don’t tend to tolerate people well who moan and groan about how broke they are and then go spend money on new stuff. But I have no problem with friends who don’t complain and buy new stuff. I guess I just figure they know their budget best.
Didn’t mean to write so much, but I guess this can be a weird issue. I think it applies to more than just frugal/spendy.
FrugalBabe says
Great comments everyone!
@Red, Best wishes to your grandmother. Thanks for the reminder that it’s a good idea to not make generalizations – everyone’s situation is different.
@NMPatricia, I agree. From what I’ve read, Trent seems pretty happy, and it seems like he leads a well-balanced life.
@MP, congrats on having the house and car paid off and no debt! That’s an impressive feat. And I’d say that it would be hard for anyone to fault you for spending money on something you want and can clearly afford. I am constantly trying to reduce my own carbon footprint, so I know what those friends of yours are talking about. However, I don’t ever criticize my friends for their environmental choices – I feel like criticism in that area is only likely to irritate people and make them LESS inclined to try to minimize their ecological impact. So I hope your friends aren’t too hard on you!
@H I agree that people in general (not just PF bloggers) can sometimes become so used to their own lifestyle that they forget that not everyone does things the same way. Composting our food scraps is something my husband and I have done for years. A few months ago I said something to my husband about how I assume most people with gardens are composting their scraps. Then we looked it up and it was a very small percentage, even among people who have backyard gardens. It’s easy to start assuming that everybody sees the world the same way we do, even when we know that some of the stuff we do (cloth diapers, etc.) are not exactly mainstream.
@NoPinkHere, Nice job on paying off the BMW! You make a good point about first impressions. If someone saw me wandering around the high-priced health food store where I shop, wearing Gap jeans and an Armani tank top, they might assume that I’m wealthy and a big spender. But the jeans were $5 and the tank top was $3, and food is one of the few things I spend money on. Our son sleeps on an organic crib mattress and rides in Britax carseats… we’re able to afford those things because we’re frugal in so many other areas. I agree with you that it’s hard to tolerate people who complain about money issues while at the same time spending lots of it. None of my friends are like that though, so it doesn’t really matter to me what they spend their money on.
Thanks for weighing in everyone – lots to think about here!
Cate says
I have nothing to weigh in on the actual post topic…but I have an award for you on my blog! You should come check it out.
Him says
I definitely agree with “H” that both Trent and I are pretty much two sides of the same coin. It’s definitely about perspective. We’re DINKS and Trent has 2 or 3 kids. Trent lives in rural Iowa and we’re in big city Chicago. I’ve doubled my income in the last 5 years, and Trent took a pay cut to blog full time.
Let me clarify: we’re not against thrift in any manner. I just don’t think that because I have a 20 year old TV and a 10 year old car that I’m better than anyone else. Or that because we blew a lot of money on our wedding/honeymoon that anyone is better than us.
FrugalBabe says
Him, thanks for stopping by! I agree with everything you say – it’s hard to compare two people who are at completely different points in life, with different incomes and financial responsibilities. And you make a good point about how a person can be both thrifty (the 20 year old tv) and spendy (the wedding) at the same time.
I believe that what a person spends money on shouldn’t be anybody else’s business unless it starts to impact other people. And this goes both ways… a person can be so frugal that they start to cross the line into being cheap. If they start to skimp on tips and shortchange their friends when a group is splitting costs, that’s wrong. Same goes for a person who overspends and then has to rely on other people to pay for necessities.
Overall, as long as we take care to make sure that we are responsible enough that our financial choices don’t negatively impact other people, I say live and let live.
Ryan @ Planting Dollars says
I agree a bit more with Trent on this probably, like you mention, because he is more like me than “Him.” I can’t find the value in spending on things that aren’t necessary and any additional money I have could be better spent on helping worthy causes. Maybe I’m a bleeding heart, but one of my main reasons for discussing personal finance and building businesses is so that I can have the ability to help others with my financial success, not buy shiner toys.
The thing that bugs me about how other people spend their money is the waste and environmental damage that often comes because of that spending. We all live in the same world and a consumerist mentality affects all of us whether we like it or not. It also bugs me that many people can’t find the value in a person, but rather need material objects to place value on that person. I.E. if you don’t wear banana republic you’re not worth anything.
I’m more frugal than my friends, but they see where I’m coming from. I delay gratification today so that I can accomplish dreams that require money in the future. If I eat out every night I’ll never achieve my dreams so it’s just about personal preference.